Advanced Sustainable Packaging Design - Lancome La Vie Est Belle Packaging | Ep 110

00:00:00:03 - 00:00:23:01
Evelio Mattos
If you've ever wanted to design molded fiber packaging, this is the episode for you because today we're talking to the team that's created this new Langholm box wrap. It's all molded fiber. It's completely one piece of mono material packaging. It's changing the way that product is being packaged. They're also the team that developed this wrap for ruin art, champagne.

00:00:23:02 - 00:00:42:19
Evelio Mattos
This was the first piece. You've seen it everywhere. If you're in packaging, these guys are changing the game with molded fiber. They're doing something completely different. And we're talking to Richard Dancey and Rohan Noel from Color Form. These guys are based in Lakes District north of London, but they're doing some amazing work and want to talk about what you design.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:06:05
Evelio Mattos
Like, how do you design it? We're going to talk about the five things that you've got to know before you even start designing molded fiber. And we're going to get into the details of how they created this product for Lancome. All right. So do me a favor before we jump into the episode. Subscribe to this channel on YouTube and on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever it is that you're listening to this Do me here, subscribe to it helps me continue to grow and bring more information for you to become a better packaging designer and help you package your product even better.

00:01:06:17 - 00:01:14:11
Evelio Mattos
Our guys, let's get to the show. If you can do a quick introduction, Richard and Rohan, who you are and what you guys do would be amazing.

00:01:14:14 - 00:01:37:01
Richard Dancy
Sure, I'll go first if you like. So my name is Richard Dancy, and I'm the brand manager at Colorful, formed by James Cotter. And I look after all the communication and the brand and the values of of our story and the products and services that we offer as part of our molded fiber collection.

00:01:37:16 - 00:01:38:13
Evelio Mattos
And Rowan, what do you do?

00:01:38:14 - 00:02:05:11
Rowan Nowell
Yeah, I'm the senior designer here at Clapham and being here for approximately five, six years and you know, I've been working on some, some of the projects through in our project that ruin I and this one the Lancome Love Isobel project as well. So it's really fun from five or six years and some really interesting projects as well to go with it.

00:02:05:11 - 00:02:27:02
Evelio Mattos
So he sent over this Lancome piece, you know, and I'll have photos of this going over the video. I'll share photos of this as part of the that's part of the promo for this. But I mean, this is a beautiful sculpture. I see that you're using the same lock that you did on the ruined art piece. Have you painted this?

00:02:27:02 - 00:02:39:10
Richard Dancy
It's similar. It's similar. It's it's not the original one is in a different sector. So obviously it's in the in the drink sector. This is a fragrance.

00:02:39:10 - 00:02:48:10
Evelio Mattos
Yeah. But the lock, the lock mechanism being similar in the way that you're holding this closed, have you patented this, this lock.

00:02:48:17 - 00:03:12:22
Rowan Nowell
This particular lock one and is similar. You're right. In surprising settings as well. The one that you referred to on the Ruin album we have painted, although in the way that it closes, it's it's got a slightly different function in terms what this one kind of front sits on the back on the on the roof now on it it kind of interlocks below and above the clasp.

00:03:12:22 - 00:03:24:08
Rowan Nowell
And I triangulate those those three points. I don't believe that we've painted this one particularly. I think it's possibly covered with the with your the painting.

00:03:24:08 - 00:03:45:17
Richard Dancy
I think it might be. I have some information that says it's a patented clasp. So but I don't know if it's the detail of this particular to this one or whether it's it's the in general. But what I do know is that nobody else knows how to do it. We're the only people who are doing it.

00:03:45:17 - 00:03:47:05
Evelio Mattos
So unless they pinch Rowan.

00:03:47:05 - 00:03:53:06
Rowan Nowell
And it's not easy, that's for sure. It's yeah. Each one's.

00:03:53:08 - 00:04:05:23
Evelio Mattos
No, I mean, that's yeah. I mean, that's that's what's amazing. All right. So let's talk about let's talk about this. So Lancome comes to you, and I'm going to do a quick, you know, opening of this box. I appreciate the bottle being in here.

00:04:06:00 - 00:04:09:17
Richard Dancy
Makes it. Yeah. I'm sorry you didn't get the perfume volumes. Sorry we didn't.

00:04:09:18 - 00:04:18:20
Evelio Mattos
I thought. I thought this water smelt delicious. Yeah. All right, so you've got a bottle. This form matches it perfectly.

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:19:09
Richard Dancy
Yeah.

00:04:19:12 - 00:04:20:19
Evelio Mattos
You know, it's now. It's closed.

00:04:21:07 - 00:04:23:11
Richard Dancy
Yeah.

00:04:23:11 - 00:04:29:18
Evelio Mattos
Lancome comes to you. What's the process like? What's their goal? And then what's the process to get here?

00:04:30:04 - 00:04:57:07
Rowan Nowell
The main key aspects for their project was that, you know, the that bottle, you know, it's iconic in the way that they have the band around the neck with with the leaf pattern was something that was just not the visual language that that was just not coming through with that current packaging, with it going into a box. They really wanted to sort of bring that through and almost accentuate those, those aspects of the design and bring it through to the packaging.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:29:21
Rowan Nowell
And, and, and so, you know, it would want to be something that's instantly recognizable from on the shelf. And they came to us and said, you know, and so I said, we need we need this packaging. And it's going to be tightly wrapped around our product. But also, you know, so the silhouette from from a distance and you know, that combined with features to sort of really bring to the sort of the floral aspect of it.

00:05:29:21 - 00:06:17:00
Rowan Nowell
So and you know and then as well as things like that, they wanted it to be able to be opened and to see the product within. But then also very closed against as you touched on the cost aspect was really important for them. Yeah, you know we worked through quite a few design iterations on the fact that they wanted this developing far too quickly and they didn't really want so given with like a couple of different aspects around, especially around this of the leaves, around the, around the neck to sort of to try and get the, you know, the high quality that they were really looking for in the past.

00:06:17:02 - 00:06:49:19
Richard Dancy
Just just to add to that, they the brand itself, the Olivia Bell from Lancome is has been going ten years now. So they it's it's a incredibly successful brand for Bell and it's a it's a new addition called Domaine de la Rose which is telling the story of the where they grow the organic senti foliar roses, which is harvested in Grasse in the south of France.

00:06:49:19 - 00:07:25:15
Richard Dancy
So and along with that sort of celebration, you know, that number one in Europe and number three in the world, but this fragrance, they they wanted to sort of highlight their craftsmanship and also the how beautiful and delicate it is, but also with a with the sort of nod to their, you know, sustainability, credentials and innovation and know how, you know, obviously this is a recyclable, eco designed bio cellulose paper, all those kind of things.

00:07:25:15 - 00:07:54:18
Richard Dancy
So it was really important for them to be able to to have a beautiful object, which includes the packaging and, you know, often in the past, the packaging is perhaps not not as great as the of the product itself. Whereas this, as you've identified, is, you know, as he becomes an object of desire itself. And it's it's it's great to touch.

00:07:54:18 - 00:08:15:05
Richard Dancy
It's it looks fantastic. And it really, you know, they're really excited about something like this is an innovation in the markets. The first is the first in in the fragrance market to have a one piece designed with with this this this embossed detail.

00:08:15:10 - 00:08:31:22
Evelio Mattos
As a packaging designer. Right. I saw the pictures of this. I saw they posted some of the sketches and kind of the direction they wanted. I know typically those you know, those those sketches in the photos are done after the fact. Right. Because it's all part. Yeah, I the process is a little bit dirtier than what that looks like.

00:08:32:16 - 00:08:32:21
Richard Dancy
Yeah.

00:08:33:07 - 00:08:58:16
Evelio Mattos
So you're about to be able to packaging. It's a one piece, it unlocks, it opens up, it has the shape of the bottle. The purpose of packaging is typically to protect the product. So what kind of product protection does this provide and does this product in this industry, in terms of the fragrance, does it require as much packaging and protection as we typically see in fragrance, which is like a rigid box and insert?

00:08:58:16 - 00:09:00:07
Evelio Mattos
And all these different components.

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:16:12
Rowan Nowell
Generally really starting to assess, not just like the whole market assess what level of protection and do do do products really require. Because often I think we find a lot of the time that things are way over packaged.

00:09:17:01 - 00:09:58:11
Richard Dancy
I would say that it this is a limited edition and so it's the start of that journey with, with exploring the options and packaging. I think the, the, as far as we're aware because it's only, you know, it's a limited launch at the moment. It's I don't believe it's an e-commerce to the consumer. It's direct to store and I've seen in the shows and these are the there store in Paris the sort of flagship store that it comes in an ounce, a pack separated just by it, sort of.

00:09:58:22 - 00:10:28:14
Richard Dancy
I think it's like six or eight in a pack. And they're sort of diagonally fit into like an outer cardboard, like a sort of honeycomb protection, but but very little cardboard. Whereas the box that if you buy in currently, which is not this this limited edition is a folding box with plastic around the outside similar to to pretty much every one, every other one that you would that you would normally buy.

00:10:28:22 - 00:10:57:03
Richard Dancy
So yeah, as Ryan says, it's it's reduced the amounts a lot at the moment. It's not a full replacement. I know we've talked before about the the ruin on the W9 and that that is a genuinely full replacement to the to the gift boxes they used to use. Whereas at the moment they this is a limited edition and they're exploring what's, what's possible and learn a lot from from this particular iteration.

00:10:57:17 - 00:11:28:06
Evelio Mattos
If I am a fragrance company, a tech company, I'm looking for something this innovative, right? Because now this this packaging is hitting all the all the packaging blogs. Obviously, you're on here. We're going to start seeing a lot more promotion around the pack. And I think from a brand standpoint, you know, I think Lancome is going to be showing this in their marketing because just like ruined art, I mean, this is a piece of art in terms of packaging and you've got the reduction in the amount of material.

00:11:28:08 - 00:11:42:23
Evelio Mattos
There's a whole story here. Brands are going to want to move into this space. I think, you know, 2023 is colored for is blowing up. I think everybody's moving into this because is looking for the new thing and this is like the new thing in packaging.

00:11:42:23 - 00:12:13:01
Richard Dancy
Yeah, there's, there's a few brands that have been looking for license to go ahead with this material and the likes of are on a long column and we have some other partners that we've worked with both in the fragrance and drinks sectors then. Now picking this up and running with it, you know. So there's been some, you know, the some benefit to being the first mover and there's some risks to being the first mover.

00:12:13:07 - 00:12:24:16
Richard Dancy
But I think that first move has now happened. And like you say, it will really pick up from here. So so yeah, we're. Yeah. And a great offer for more.

00:12:28:16 - 00:12:30:22
Evelio Mattos
Ruins going to toppling.

00:12:31:07 - 00:12:35:21
Rowan Nowell
Yeah pretty much that's yeah thanks for the kind words.

00:12:37:10 - 00:12:59:12
Evelio Mattos
In terms of like the top five things a designer needs to know when they move into more than fiber. Right. Because I think today designers look at more the fiber and they think of an insert for an iPhone. Right. And that that is that's the pinnacle of molded fiber in the mind of designers. It feels super smooth. The edges are super sharp.

00:12:59:12 - 00:13:18:17
Evelio Mattos
You know, you've got these 90 degree edges. You've got these draft angles that are almost impossible. So that's like the pinnacle of molded fiber in the mind of designers. This is like a completely new level for a designer that's wanting to move into a high level, beautiful, designed, molded fibers and enter a piece of more than fiber art.

00:13:18:17 - 00:13:21:11
Evelio Mattos
What are the top five things that they definitely need to know?

00:13:21:12 - 00:13:44:09
Richard Dancy
I think the number one that we had written down was what does what is the product? What is a designer? What is the brand? What, what what do they want the packaging to say? So, so. So number one would be what's the story? What does your packaging say about your brand? Because the packaging you choose communicates so much more than just the product.

00:13:44:09 - 00:14:14:03
Richard Dancy
You know, it's about making a statement that aligns with the brand, the product story. So that's where we start now. Some brands will have some designers will have some preconceived ideas. They might even come with with a with a design that they've they've already thought of, which is fine. But actually, sometimes we will pull back a notch and just say, okay, what is it?

00:14:14:14 - 00:14:42:01
Richard Dancy
What's crucial in the story for this particular product? What what is that? Where do you want us to start? And that's why ruin our and this long Oliver about has been so successful is that they both had really strong brands stories and heritage and it links in with that and they're able to to tell that story. So I think that's, you know, in the process, that's where we start.

00:14:42:07 - 00:15:03:23
Richard Dancy
And then there's lots of other things that Rowan gets involved with which, as he said, I caught him outside in the garden recently and with a clay mold and actually took some pictures of him molding with a scalpel in his hands and just it was fantastic. And then when when that products launch, we're will we'll probably be able to share those with you.

00:15:04:07 - 00:15:33:11
Richard Dancy
And then, you know, then we obviously we do the CAD designs and the and the 3D prints and the all the things that that you'd expect as part of product development. Number two is how can color form help you move closer to your your sustainability, your ESG commitments, environmental, social, governmental? You know, most brands and companies and products that we deal with, they've set some targets, right?

00:15:33:11 - 00:15:56:14
Richard Dancy
So they say by 2025 they're going to do this and by 2030, 2040 or whatever, they're going to do this. So I think that that's an important consideration. It's going to the detail of the design or the product itself. It's it's totally recyclable. We use 100% green energy here at times copper, which majority we self generate on site from solar and hydro.

00:15:57:03 - 00:16:07:01
Richard Dancy
So you know, you can add organic inclusions as part of the circularity story of the brand. So there's all that that can be part of, of, of that.

00:16:07:06 - 00:16:26:06
Evelio Mattos
Before we go to the number three, you talk about organic inclusions. So for example, four for the Lancome, Olivia Belle, because this is a story around the the roses and with their pigs and everything else. Are you saying you could have incorporated like rose petals into this that you'd be able to see?

00:16:26:06 - 00:16:53:03
Richard Dancy
Yeah. Now the obviously you can't do everything altogether the first time. So I think that, you know, this project, as you be well aware, has certain deadlines and there are issues with, you know, where do you get it from? Is it usable? Is it the right type? Is it the right size? All that kind of stuff? But yes, in theory that's totally possible.

00:16:53:10 - 00:17:11:08
Richard Dancy
And if anyone comes and visits us or contacts us, we can actually send them a sample that we have that includes organic materials. I think you might have one. I see. I'm sure we we must have sent you one at some stage, but yeah, that is that is possible.

00:17:11:15 - 00:17:32:13
Evelio Mattos
Yeah. I've got a I've got to lot the samples. Perfect. All right. So, so number one is the story the branding number two is just thinking, you know, really just thinking beyond all of these is what you typically think of in terms of like the the SolidWorks and the molding like. So what's number? What's number three?

00:17:33:16 - 00:17:42:07
Richard Dancy
Number three, we put as as price, actually. So the question is, can you afford not to use colorful.

00:17:43:19 - 00:17:51:03
Evelio Mattos
That's I like that spin and you ready that this is going to be a little expensive right.

00:17:51:12 - 00:18:23:13
Richard Dancy
So okay so what we're saying is this is a bespoke it's a custom, beautifully crafted option for high end packaging. Right. So we're priced accordingly. So this is not mass market. You've seen the mass market molded fiber and you know, you get your eggs in it or you get your your mobile phone in it. Sometimes. But the we are a high end luxury beauty as a as you kindly said, a piece of art.

00:18:23:13 - 00:19:02:15
Richard Dancy
And so there's a reason why we're dealing with the world's number one perfume brand and Europe's number one world number three perfume brand. And and the likes of of high end champagne is that the figures need to add up. So, you know, I think that's an important question. And we're we're very clear with our clients and our potential clients that if it's going to be something if it's a $20 product, for example, you're probably not going to you know, it's probably not going to be right for us.

00:19:02:15 - 00:19:04:00
Richard Dancy
So so that's number three.

00:19:04:06 - 00:19:26:11
Evelio Mattos
Sure. And, you know, having seen the I mean, I think at this point, everybody has seen the original wrap that you've done. I think, you know, within a few weeks, everybody's going to see this everywhere, just flooding the market from marketing standpoint. But in terms of the quantity that you've done for ruin art, or are you talking hundreds of thousands or tens of thousands at this point?

00:19:28:00 - 00:19:31:16
Richard Dancy
It's not hundreds of thousands. It's not hundreds of thousands. This year. No.

00:19:32:08 - 00:19:49:00
Evelio Mattos
Perfect. And I think that because we see it so often, we're seeing it all over the place on all the social channels, we sort of think that, oh, well, this is there's volume here, but it's really it's not it's not a volume play. It's a craft play. I mean, it's like, yeah.

00:19:49:00 - 00:20:26:11
Richard Dancy
We because this is a limit. It's not hundreds of thousands because it's a limited edition. We're able to to do hundreds of thousands. No problem. We're not able to do tens of millions, which is some of the, you know, some of the consumer electronics would be in that in that level. So that's not our market. But there's sort of up to a million a million pieces a year is something that would be would be doable.

00:20:27:10 - 00:20:33:23
Richard Dancy
And the sort of minimum order quantity, again, depending on the project and the price and everything, we're looking at 50,000 units.

00:20:35:11 - 00:21:01:22
Evelio Mattos
Okay, excellent. And for a for 50,000 units, you have to be ready to pay. Like you said, you can you can afford not to do this. So what are we affording the design time, the mold prototype, I'm sure mass production mold. What exactly are you would you be having to prepare to pay for?

00:21:01:22 - 00:21:36:20
Rowan Nowell
I think, yeah, exactly. That design time, depending on the complexity of any project, a lot of what we do is is like trying to push the boundaries. And ultimately we've, we've covered a lot of ground over the last five or six years and built up a huge amount of knowledge over that. But we find that it's a bit of a mix between and everyone wants something that's a little bit new, a little bit special, obviously.

00:21:38:02 - 00:22:09:05
Rowan Nowell
And, you know, it's is maybe a bit of a mix between adding a few new elements in. And it's those elements that that often do take the time and so we're quite used to big projects, them taking months and then being able to go through multiple iterations and then prototyping stages and changing things and modifying to get to, to where we we are with each project.

00:22:09:06 - 00:22:09:14
Rowan Nowell
Yeah.

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:32:03
Evelio Mattos
And that's I think a difference for somebody to be aware of is if you've done molded fiber before, it's completely different than what you're doing with color form. It's not that standard process because it is more of a craft versus, you know, mold, punch out, move on to the next project. So we've got we've got the first three things that you really have to consider as a designer.

00:22:33:00 - 00:22:35:20
Evelio Mattos
What do you have that what's the what's the fourth and fifth that you have?

00:22:36:09 - 00:23:11:03
Rowan Nowell
Number four, three, your mind essentially some preconceptions of what you think molded fibers are is seen as trays and things and inserts that go in boxes up until now. And what we've really tried to do on, on, on nearly every project we've worked on, which is to try and take strengths and pulp as and fantastic sense things like you can almost put a hinge anywhere you like with paper.

00:23:11:06 - 00:23:38:22
Rowan Nowell
We're finding that that's a real big strength where we can put a hinge here, we can put hinge there, and it works and we can we can build on that. And then, you know, we're starting to do more and more things where we can try not to class 60 features and try and get audible sounds into there, really give that, that feedback that you want when you close a pack and five functionality.

00:23:38:22 - 00:23:49:06
Rowan Nowell
Is this about trying to create the brace like an open brace ideal? What's the elements that you really want to describe?

00:23:49:11 - 00:24:12:15
Evelio Mattos
Perfect. That's awesome. I got to tell you, before seeing before seeing this piece here and having seen the ruined art insert and, you know, having you here and actually playing with it as a as a designer, you can't help but try to figure where this is going next. I like how what I would do or what I would use would use this for.

00:24:14:05 - 00:24:37:02
Evelio Mattos
I kept thinking of the Chanel fragrance bottle and how great it would be to mold a piece in the same shape as the bottle which you've done here. Not that that matters, but like beyond this, like to be super sustainable. You know, if you think about, you know, all the fashion magazines, you open them up and there's like the page in there with the fragrance, right?

00:24:37:02 - 00:25:03:20
Evelio Mattos
The paper has got the fragrance on it. People like rub it on and they're like, Oh, I got the Bushnell fragrance out of my Vogue magazine or whatever. And you could technically build this as the entire pack to open it up and then inside have sheets of blotter that have the fragrance in it. So you would be eliminating the bottle, the juice, the pump, everything, and just making a complete paper solution for for fragrance.

00:25:04:17 - 00:25:14:08
Richard Dancy
Yeah. With that one that, that would yeah. I don't know if the in a magazine whether that fragrance is good. I guess it, I guess it is or I don't know but I.

00:25:15:07 - 00:25:16:09
Evelio Mattos
Would have to, it would have.

00:25:16:09 - 00:25:19:07
Richard Dancy
To be otherwise they wouldn't do it right. So yeah, here's.

00:25:19:22 - 00:25:24:02
Evelio Mattos
Here's a grosser smelling fragrance in the magazine.

00:25:24:02 - 00:25:50:13
Richard Dancy
Yes. I mean it does it does ask lots of lots of questions. And I think, you know, the the the ruin our second skin, everyone saw that and thought, oh, you know, that's you know, that's been done now. But then actually when you look at the the tool group, the DOM ruined our iteration of of the second skin and that just blows.

00:25:50:14 - 00:25:51:16
Evelio Mattos
It like rock.

00:25:51:17 - 00:26:13:13
Richard Dancy
Yeah, right. It's, it's like a rock. Yeah, we call it the rock, but they call it the chill wrap. And it's again, telling the story of the of the chalk cellars where they store the champagne. But it blows out of the water. You know, it's like, wow, you know, we just thought we'd done that. But actually Rowan and the team have come up with something that is just crazy different.

00:26:13:22 - 00:26:59:17
Richard Dancy
And I think Olivia Bell, too, to some extent does that for the fragrance sector. But actually we don't know what's next. And that's why, you know, our number four question is challenge us to what's what's possible. What is it you guys want to do? Because in theory, there's all sorts possible. And I think one of the in marketing, one of the challenges that I have in this sector is to try and show people, you know, we're putting together some some print and foiling examples and some texture examples, not to say this is what you can have, but just to say this is the kind of thing that might stimulate your might inspire you like you've

00:26:59:17 - 00:27:23:09
Richard Dancy
seen the kiss inspire that we did. And the and the bottle topper and the pebble and the and the orb for for jewelry. These things we're putting out there to inspire people to kind of come back to us and challenge us instead of saying, I've seen that thing, I want one like that, you know, it's it's going to move forward.

00:27:23:14 - 00:27:32:11
Richard Dancy
But it also has to move forward with, you know, practicality and the consumer and costs and timings and everything else in in mind.

00:27:33:04 - 00:27:53:18
Evelio Mattos
Sure. So just real quick to put you kind of on the spot, Rohan, if if Apple comes to you and they say, you know, we've got this iconic Apple iPhone box, everybody loves, you know, a two piece, it's laminated, it's got the insert, blah, blah, blah. But we want to move into a single unit molded fiber, like what would be your your approach?

00:27:53:18 - 00:27:58:18
Evelio Mattos
Where do you think you land on on that design?

00:27:58:18 - 00:28:25:07
Rowan Nowell
I mean, yeah, what great project that would be, you know, just taking some of the awesome, you know, design language that they've built over the years and trying to them bring that into pulp. I mean, you know, especially with Apple and, you know, this that really kind of almost famous thing, which is, you know, that 7 seconds to open the box.

00:28:25:07 - 00:28:55:12
Rowan Nowell
And that's the perfect amount of suspense that that that they've told us for for a while. And you go, you know what? What could we then build on that and then say, hey, let's take that step further and go, well, you know, where could we go with that? And how how could the next the next piece do that?

00:28:55:14 - 00:29:14:06
Rowan Nowell
And it may be in a different way or in a, you know, break it up. So maybe it's an unveiling process as opposed to it's totally revealed. And it's, you know, just some just some thoughts maybe. Yeah. And wouldn't yeah. Cool to find out.

00:29:14:06 - 00:29:36:02
Evelio Mattos
So yeah. We'd love to see we'd love to see your take on the Apple Watch at some point and how to package some of these tech products. You know, because the tech has so much packaging, so much waste, and a lot of time just like fragrance. The primary pack is built to take impact. It's built to really handle all the product protection.

00:29:36:02 - 00:29:54:20
Evelio Mattos
So what you're doing is really we're creating a second skin over that product and over packaging it with the core good inserts and the rigid boxes like all of those components. So if we can strip packaging down to the core essence of what's actually needed, you've got, you know, you guys have a, you have the answer.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:24:18
Richard Dancy
Absolutely nothing on that product. The Dome ruined know I think the second skin was nine times lighter than the gift box. The dorm room was actually 11 times lighter than the gift box it replaces. And so you're right, you know, the it's much better to have a second skin rather than a, you know, a massive ski jacket and an overcoat and a and all these seven layers in between because it's, you know, perhaps a number of those layers are unnecessary.

00:30:25:23 - 00:30:36:08
Evelio Mattos
Excellent. Well, guys, appreciate it as we wrap up here. Richard Rowan, if anybody wants to get a hold of you, it's color form Coelho. You are F or M dot com.

00:30:37:12 - 00:30:53:22
Richard Dancy
Dot co.uk or James Cropper dot com. Perfect. Yeah. In the U.K., we put a U in color and we put a next day and we put an R in fiber. So it's Ari, not never mind.

00:30:54:12 - 00:31:12:07
Evelio Mattos
I well, thank you. I appreciate you guys being on here and doing this. This has been super educational. Again, this link home, Olivia Bell is an amazing piece of design. I can't wait to see what comes next from you, from your team.

00:31:12:15 - 00:31:16:12
Richard Dancy
Thank you very much for inviting us.

00:31:16:12 - 00:31:20:20
Evelio Mattos
All right. That's it for packaging unboxd. We'll see you next week.